Third and final debate
7:35pm
Here we go again. Tonight’s third and final Prime Ministerial debate is centered around the economy, so there will likely be much emphasis by each man on how they won’t make crippling cuts vital services, and few if any categorical assertions as to what will actually be getting cut, and how deeply.
You could say each will be anxious to paint themselves as “less parsimonious than thou”. Parsimonious, by the way, is a great word. One synonym is “niggardly”, another great word but one which I don’t expect anyone to be pulling out of the hat this evening (unless Griffin turns up unexpectedly). Although it would make for a fine act of political suicide.
Speaking of which... Yes, sadly the economy is threatening to be overshadowed this evening by the dreaded Bigotgate debacle. I won’t go into this in detail because it makes me too angry, suffice to say that Mrs Duffy’s comments, such as “all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?” (um, Eastern Europe, I'd say) could quite easily be construed as bigoted. As a friend said on Facebook - look, they still count as a friend, ok? - Brown would have been better off explaining why he considered the old lady bigoted rather than trying to extricate himself from his comments. But then that would blow the lid on the tri-party game wherein everyone panders to some extent to the lowest common denominator viewpoint of immigration being out of control. Or the “dey took our jerbs!” position, as it's known.
Right, once more into the breach (in an hour or so)...
8:27pm
Ok, I've just turned it over and Ronald McDonald is pootling around in a car. Seriously, WTF? Let's put the snooker on and come back in a couple of minutes.
8:30
Exciting as the Dott-Selby safety battle is, this is the REAL heavyweight contest tonight. Nice understated set, Dimbleby at the reins - ah, good old BBC. Who knows what this would look like should the Tories get in.
Cameron: the economy is stuck in a rut. Let's reward work, fix the banks, and start making stuff. Oh, and get value for money from public services. Let's not join the Euro.
Clegg personalising things already ("tonight is about you"). Saying much the same as Dave, except the zero income tax on first £10,000 thing.
Brown gets his reference to yesterday's events out of the way and warns of the perils of further recession. Support the economy NOW and ensure a recovery. Does he sound slightly nervous?
8:34pm
First question. Why can't you be honest about cuts, goddammit? Nick says their manifesto is more detailed than the others'. No to tax credits for the rich, or the Eurofighter. Efficiency savings are not enough. Labour will make "fair" tax rises and "equitable" cuts - deficit reduction plan basically. He categorically states no cuts for NHS or schools, and pledges no cuts this year. Dave says the Tories were "first" to say cuts had to come, but they apparently won't cut police or health etc either. Instead, public sector pay freeze, later retirement, and efficiency savings NOW.
The Dimbleby gently encourages them to state fully what cuts they'll make. Nick suggests a three-chancellor style love-in during which they spell out the size of the black hole. Ok... Gordon is adamant that everything will go tits up under the Tories if they make instant cuts. Dave says that by stopping glossy leaflets and NHS managerial payrises they'll save 6 billion quid, and raising National Insurance would be ker-azy. Trying to paint it as him and the business leaders versus silly old Gordon (although all the other European countries are doing it Brown's way).
Clegg emphasising fairness - tax breaks, closing loopholes. Pushes for his Council for Financial Stability again, which as names go isn't terribly catchy.
8:45pm
Lady complaining about rising taxes, what will you do about it? Gordon notes they've introduced a lot of tax breaks and raised top rate of income tax. He's spending more time slagging off the Tories than on his own position. Dave hammers the Govt for being wasteful. He's not saying they'll introduce any tax breaks, just that they won't implement the NI rise. Nick complains about the echoey hall, and (more importantly) about inequality - we should close silly loopholes for the super-rich and give money back to ordinary folks, ie no income tax on first £10K of earnings.
Brown points out that nobody on less than £20K will pay the NI rise. And they won't reduce other tax credits. The Tories just want to help the rich, as usual - tsk. Dave reckons that Brown has effectively said that anybody earning over £20K is rich (he hasn't to be fair), and that tax breaks on inheritance tax encourages people to work hard and save etc (or something).
The economy, it's fair to say, is a very dry subject. The three men are addressing things in the simplest possible terms but even then it's a struggle to engage in the topic, and I say this as someone who wants everyone to get more involved in politics.
8:53pm
More bickering. Nick says it's not right for tax credits to go so far up the scale in terms of highish salaries. He cleverly gets in the last word, making out that he's the only one not indulging in points scoring. Dimbleby is doing his best to get them to justify and clarify their claims.
8:57pm
Question about regulating the banks. Dave wants a bank levy, and for them to get lending again. He invokes Obama (well done), saying that retail banks shouldn't be allowed to act like casinos. Clegg: get rid of bonuses full stop, although fancy golf club memberships are apparently okay. Gordon congratulates himself on saving Northern Rock, RBS etc and YOUR savings. We need a worldwide agreement on a financial levy - but we will NEVER allow the bankers to act irresponsibly again. Dave points out that Labour hitched the economy towards the City of London, and gave Fred "The Shred" Goodwin (boooo!! etc) a knighthood. Tories will put the Bank of England back in charge.
Nick distancing himself from the City, also wants banks to split their investment and high street arms. Gordon mentions Obama himself, just to even the score. Says Tories will cut Corporation Tax for the banks. Dave mocks the Lib Dems for wanting to join the Euro and indulges in some anti-European scaremongering. No says Nick, we'd only advocate entry in the right economic conditions. Let's have a 10% levy on bank profits.
9:06pm
How will you rebuild the manufacturing industry? Clegg: banks must start lending in order to create jobs. Brown believes we can create 400,000 jobs in low carbon technologies, 500,000 in digital media. He's optimistic about the economy, and the West Midlands (hey, somebody has to be). Regional manufacturing is vital. Cameron: Birmingham was known as "the city of 1000 trades", you know. It also has more canals than Venice - FACT! We need more apprenticeships, and certainly no NI increase (he may have mentioned this before). Nick craftily disses the Kraft takeover of Cadburys to gain some brownie points.
Brown celebrates the fact we have more students than ever - yes, but lots are doing shitty degrees and not getting decent jobs afterwards! Grr. We can't take money out of the economy or abolish Regional Development Agencies. Dave wants the Govt to give a quarter of its building contracts to smaller firms. Nick bemoans the lack of offshore wind turbine manufacturing - Gordon insists we'll invest heavily in this, and in digital. Superfast broadband for all! Dave: we've had 9 Energy Ministers (2 of whom were the same person) and nothing happens. And the vast regional bureaucracies are rubbish.
9:17pm
Dimbleby reminds us there are parties in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland too. They will get on the local news and stuff. Not here though. UKIP and the Greens will be on the news after this, you'll be pleased to know.
Next question: not so much a question as an accusation that the parties have become removed from concerns of real people in terms of immigration etc. Gordon now thanking his lucky stars that there's no audience interaction in these debates. We've banned low-skilled workers coming in etc. Dave playing the "too many folks coming in" card. We need a cap, tens rather than hundreds of thousands - would lead to better integration. Nick says of course we're concerned - immigration system has become chaotic though. We need exit controls, regional approach (see first debate) and border patrols.
As much as Dimbleby reminds them of the question there's not a hope in hell of them answering it, as the real answer would be: immigration is not as big a problem as the media (and us, at times) make it out to be, foreigners are not so different to us really, plenty of people leave Britain too, and people who complain are often content to sit on their arses rather than looking for work. Sigh.
Nick to Dave: let's just save time and assume that every time you talk about our policy you're wrong. Oooooooh! Other than that, I'm bored now. You've made me pick the scab on my elbow, I hope you're satisfied.
9:30pm
Dimbleby: "I'd like to have one from Anna Heywood please." I bet you would! Question about the housing market - very pertinent one as it goes. Cameron doesn't like it that savers get penalised. We should build more houses, reform planning system. Will the new houses just cost as much as the current ones though? Clegg points out the thousands of empty properties which could potentially be converted - Lib Dems will convert 250,000 of them, and convert flats for single people in cities into flats for families (but how?). Brown says there are a million more homeowners now than 10 years ago - but how many of them are for buy-to-let landlords or second homes? His ideas are pretty much the same as the other two's.
Nick wants more council houses, and VAT on all homes. Gordon wants more shared equity where you can part-own your home and gradually buy it up.
9:36pm
Graham finds it galling that some people abuse the system by living solely off benefits. Nick says lifting the income tax threshold will encourage people to get off benefits, as they would then be earning more by working. Gordon wants to force people into work or training, to avoid the "lost generation" of young unemployed. And to get people off incapacity benefit and into work too. Dave will remove benefits for anyone who refuses a job if it's offered. Points out how many people are on them after Labour have been in power so long. Nick wants to restore earnings link in pensions (which isn't getting anyone off benefits but at least might appeal to Graham). Gordon was going to do that anyway, duh.
Key differences? Nick thinks best way is to provide incentives to help people help themselves. Brown says WE don't want a generation of young people not working, so everyone should be compelled to train if not working. I'm not sure the other parties actively want young people to be dossers, to be fair. Dave attacks Gordon rather than answering Dimbleby's question. Gordon stumbles on his words a little while attacking Nick, worst stumbling so far.
9:46pm
What will you do to ensure all children have equal opportunities? Brown says they've added far more child benefits, tax breaks and nursery education opportunities. Wants social mobility. Dave sucks up to the teacher-questioner. We should give control of schools back to the teachers, so kids who've been excluded can't be reinstated by some faceless panel whoever they may be. And, let's let companies come in and run schools, that'll be good. Lib Dems want to take 2.5 billion pounds saved from efficiencies and give it to schools in poorer areas. Do this by having smaller class sizes, 1-to-1 education, crucially in the early years.
Gordon wants underperforming schools to be taken over by good schools. How many schools can one school run? Dave prefers the old-fashioned methods of teaching reading and writing, and basically wants more streaming though he doesn't say it in so many words. Nick is very animated on this subject, sweating quite a bit actually. Stressing the importance of his income tax breaks. Brown says he's passionate but doesn't show it. Ooh, look at me reducing everything to a superficial level! Sorry, I'm getting tired.
Dave slags off all the quangos and waste - he doesn't want massage tables and contemplation rooms, which is probably fair enough.
9:56pm
Endgame. Final statements: Cameron - families, work and security are most important. And judge a society by how it looks after the most vulnerable. New, fresh government, clean break.
Clegg - believes doing things differently will be better. Don't be scared into not voting for REAL CHANGE. The old parties won't change much really. He will deliver fairness.
Brown - the debates show that politics matters, and there are big differences between parties. BUT, we are the only party to trust in these economic conditions, basically. Picking holes in the others' policies. Does come across as a bit desperate to be brutally honest.
And that's that. This was by far the least interesting debate, because by now the novelty had worn off and there was a certain amount of rehashing of stuff that had been covered already in the previous two. The economy portion was going over new ground and each man did establish a clear and distinct position, but predictably enough nobody is going to say where exactly all their cuts will be targeted.
Sadly for Brown, all his hard work on presenting himself as a normal human being and solid statesman in these debates may have been blown out of the water by one terrible gaffe, whether that's right or not. Well, only a week to go before we find out who's in and who's out, though it's looking more and more likely that Labour will have to form the next government with the Lib Dems or not at all. I'm hoping for a hung parliament. It'd be something different.
Finally, have just turned over to You Have Been Watching and Charlie Brooker appears to have morphed into Jack Penate, which I'm not sure could be considered progress. Meanwhile, looks like Fulham are into the Europa League final, which most certainly is. We love you Woy.
Goodnight.
Here we go again. Tonight’s third and final Prime Ministerial debate is centered around the economy, so there will likely be much emphasis by each man on how they won’t make crippling cuts vital services, and few if any categorical assertions as to what will actually be getting cut, and how deeply.
You could say each will be anxious to paint themselves as “less parsimonious than thou”. Parsimonious, by the way, is a great word. One synonym is “niggardly”, another great word but one which I don’t expect anyone to be pulling out of the hat this evening (unless Griffin turns up unexpectedly). Although it would make for a fine act of political suicide.
Speaking of which... Yes, sadly the economy is threatening to be overshadowed this evening by the dreaded Bigotgate debacle. I won’t go into this in detail because it makes me too angry, suffice to say that Mrs Duffy’s comments, such as “all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?” (um, Eastern Europe, I'd say) could quite easily be construed as bigoted. As a friend said on Facebook - look, they still count as a friend, ok? - Brown would have been better off explaining why he considered the old lady bigoted rather than trying to extricate himself from his comments. But then that would blow the lid on the tri-party game wherein everyone panders to some extent to the lowest common denominator viewpoint of immigration being out of control. Or the “dey took our jerbs!” position, as it's known.
Right, once more into the breach (in an hour or so)...
8:27pm
Ok, I've just turned it over and Ronald McDonald is pootling around in a car. Seriously, WTF? Let's put the snooker on and come back in a couple of minutes.
8:30
Exciting as the Dott-Selby safety battle is, this is the REAL heavyweight contest tonight. Nice understated set, Dimbleby at the reins - ah, good old BBC. Who knows what this would look like should the Tories get in.
Cameron: the economy is stuck in a rut. Let's reward work, fix the banks, and start making stuff. Oh, and get value for money from public services. Let's not join the Euro.
Clegg personalising things already ("tonight is about you"). Saying much the same as Dave, except the zero income tax on first £10,000 thing.
Brown gets his reference to yesterday's events out of the way and warns of the perils of further recession. Support the economy NOW and ensure a recovery. Does he sound slightly nervous?
8:34pm
First question. Why can't you be honest about cuts, goddammit? Nick says their manifesto is more detailed than the others'. No to tax credits for the rich, or the Eurofighter. Efficiency savings are not enough. Labour will make "fair" tax rises and "equitable" cuts - deficit reduction plan basically. He categorically states no cuts for NHS or schools, and pledges no cuts this year. Dave says the Tories were "first" to say cuts had to come, but they apparently won't cut police or health etc either. Instead, public sector pay freeze, later retirement, and efficiency savings NOW.
The Dimbleby gently encourages them to state fully what cuts they'll make. Nick suggests a three-chancellor style love-in during which they spell out the size of the black hole. Ok... Gordon is adamant that everything will go tits up under the Tories if they make instant cuts. Dave says that by stopping glossy leaflets and NHS managerial payrises they'll save 6 billion quid, and raising National Insurance would be ker-azy. Trying to paint it as him and the business leaders versus silly old Gordon (although all the other European countries are doing it Brown's way).
Clegg emphasising fairness - tax breaks, closing loopholes. Pushes for his Council for Financial Stability again, which as names go isn't terribly catchy.
8:45pm
Lady complaining about rising taxes, what will you do about it? Gordon notes they've introduced a lot of tax breaks and raised top rate of income tax. He's spending more time slagging off the Tories than on his own position. Dave hammers the Govt for being wasteful. He's not saying they'll introduce any tax breaks, just that they won't implement the NI rise. Nick complains about the echoey hall, and (more importantly) about inequality - we should close silly loopholes for the super-rich and give money back to ordinary folks, ie no income tax on first £10K of earnings.
Brown points out that nobody on less than £20K will pay the NI rise. And they won't reduce other tax credits. The Tories just want to help the rich, as usual - tsk. Dave reckons that Brown has effectively said that anybody earning over £20K is rich (he hasn't to be fair), and that tax breaks on inheritance tax encourages people to work hard and save etc (or something).
The economy, it's fair to say, is a very dry subject. The three men are addressing things in the simplest possible terms but even then it's a struggle to engage in the topic, and I say this as someone who wants everyone to get more involved in politics.
8:53pm
More bickering. Nick says it's not right for tax credits to go so far up the scale in terms of highish salaries. He cleverly gets in the last word, making out that he's the only one not indulging in points scoring. Dimbleby is doing his best to get them to justify and clarify their claims.
8:57pm
Question about regulating the banks. Dave wants a bank levy, and for them to get lending again. He invokes Obama (well done), saying that retail banks shouldn't be allowed to act like casinos. Clegg: get rid of bonuses full stop, although fancy golf club memberships are apparently okay. Gordon congratulates himself on saving Northern Rock, RBS etc and YOUR savings. We need a worldwide agreement on a financial levy - but we will NEVER allow the bankers to act irresponsibly again. Dave points out that Labour hitched the economy towards the City of London, and gave Fred "The Shred" Goodwin (boooo!! etc) a knighthood. Tories will put the Bank of England back in charge.
Nick distancing himself from the City, also wants banks to split their investment and high street arms. Gordon mentions Obama himself, just to even the score. Says Tories will cut Corporation Tax for the banks. Dave mocks the Lib Dems for wanting to join the Euro and indulges in some anti-European scaremongering. No says Nick, we'd only advocate entry in the right economic conditions. Let's have a 10% levy on bank profits.
9:06pm
How will you rebuild the manufacturing industry? Clegg: banks must start lending in order to create jobs. Brown believes we can create 400,000 jobs in low carbon technologies, 500,000 in digital media. He's optimistic about the economy, and the West Midlands (hey, somebody has to be). Regional manufacturing is vital. Cameron: Birmingham was known as "the city of 1000 trades", you know. It also has more canals than Venice - FACT! We need more apprenticeships, and certainly no NI increase (he may have mentioned this before). Nick craftily disses the Kraft takeover of Cadburys to gain some brownie points.
Brown celebrates the fact we have more students than ever - yes, but lots are doing shitty degrees and not getting decent jobs afterwards! Grr. We can't take money out of the economy or abolish Regional Development Agencies. Dave wants the Govt to give a quarter of its building contracts to smaller firms. Nick bemoans the lack of offshore wind turbine manufacturing - Gordon insists we'll invest heavily in this, and in digital. Superfast broadband for all! Dave: we've had 9 Energy Ministers (2 of whom were the same person) and nothing happens. And the vast regional bureaucracies are rubbish.
9:17pm
Dimbleby reminds us there are parties in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland too. They will get on the local news and stuff. Not here though. UKIP and the Greens will be on the news after this, you'll be pleased to know.
Next question: not so much a question as an accusation that the parties have become removed from concerns of real people in terms of immigration etc. Gordon now thanking his lucky stars that there's no audience interaction in these debates. We've banned low-skilled workers coming in etc. Dave playing the "too many folks coming in" card. We need a cap, tens rather than hundreds of thousands - would lead to better integration. Nick says of course we're concerned - immigration system has become chaotic though. We need exit controls, regional approach (see first debate) and border patrols.
As much as Dimbleby reminds them of the question there's not a hope in hell of them answering it, as the real answer would be: immigration is not as big a problem as the media (and us, at times) make it out to be, foreigners are not so different to us really, plenty of people leave Britain too, and people who complain are often content to sit on their arses rather than looking for work. Sigh.
Nick to Dave: let's just save time and assume that every time you talk about our policy you're wrong. Oooooooh! Other than that, I'm bored now. You've made me pick the scab on my elbow, I hope you're satisfied.
9:30pm
Dimbleby: "I'd like to have one from Anna Heywood please." I bet you would! Question about the housing market - very pertinent one as it goes. Cameron doesn't like it that savers get penalised. We should build more houses, reform planning system. Will the new houses just cost as much as the current ones though? Clegg points out the thousands of empty properties which could potentially be converted - Lib Dems will convert 250,000 of them, and convert flats for single people in cities into flats for families (but how?). Brown says there are a million more homeowners now than 10 years ago - but how many of them are for buy-to-let landlords or second homes? His ideas are pretty much the same as the other two's.
Nick wants more council houses, and VAT on all homes. Gordon wants more shared equity where you can part-own your home and gradually buy it up.
9:36pm
Graham finds it galling that some people abuse the system by living solely off benefits. Nick says lifting the income tax threshold will encourage people to get off benefits, as they would then be earning more by working. Gordon wants to force people into work or training, to avoid the "lost generation" of young unemployed. And to get people off incapacity benefit and into work too. Dave will remove benefits for anyone who refuses a job if it's offered. Points out how many people are on them after Labour have been in power so long. Nick wants to restore earnings link in pensions (which isn't getting anyone off benefits but at least might appeal to Graham). Gordon was going to do that anyway, duh.
Key differences? Nick thinks best way is to provide incentives to help people help themselves. Brown says WE don't want a generation of young people not working, so everyone should be compelled to train if not working. I'm not sure the other parties actively want young people to be dossers, to be fair. Dave attacks Gordon rather than answering Dimbleby's question. Gordon stumbles on his words a little while attacking Nick, worst stumbling so far.
9:46pm
What will you do to ensure all children have equal opportunities? Brown says they've added far more child benefits, tax breaks and nursery education opportunities. Wants social mobility. Dave sucks up to the teacher-questioner. We should give control of schools back to the teachers, so kids who've been excluded can't be reinstated by some faceless panel whoever they may be. And, let's let companies come in and run schools, that'll be good. Lib Dems want to take 2.5 billion pounds saved from efficiencies and give it to schools in poorer areas. Do this by having smaller class sizes, 1-to-1 education, crucially in the early years.
Gordon wants underperforming schools to be taken over by good schools. How many schools can one school run? Dave prefers the old-fashioned methods of teaching reading and writing, and basically wants more streaming though he doesn't say it in so many words. Nick is very animated on this subject, sweating quite a bit actually. Stressing the importance of his income tax breaks. Brown says he's passionate but doesn't show it. Ooh, look at me reducing everything to a superficial level! Sorry, I'm getting tired.
Dave slags off all the quangos and waste - he doesn't want massage tables and contemplation rooms, which is probably fair enough.
9:56pm
Endgame. Final statements: Cameron - families, work and security are most important. And judge a society by how it looks after the most vulnerable. New, fresh government, clean break.
Clegg - believes doing things differently will be better. Don't be scared into not voting for REAL CHANGE. The old parties won't change much really. He will deliver fairness.
Brown - the debates show that politics matters, and there are big differences between parties. BUT, we are the only party to trust in these economic conditions, basically. Picking holes in the others' policies. Does come across as a bit desperate to be brutally honest.
And that's that. This was by far the least interesting debate, because by now the novelty had worn off and there was a certain amount of rehashing of stuff that had been covered already in the previous two. The economy portion was going over new ground and each man did establish a clear and distinct position, but predictably enough nobody is going to say where exactly all their cuts will be targeted.
Sadly for Brown, all his hard work on presenting himself as a normal human being and solid statesman in these debates may have been blown out of the water by one terrible gaffe, whether that's right or not. Well, only a week to go before we find out who's in and who's out, though it's looking more and more likely that Labour will have to form the next government with the Lib Dems or not at all. I'm hoping for a hung parliament. It'd be something different.
Finally, have just turned over to You Have Been Watching and Charlie Brooker appears to have morphed into Jack Penate, which I'm not sure could be considered progress. Meanwhile, looks like Fulham are into the Europa League final, which most certainly is. We love you Woy.
Goodnight.
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